tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2681422887257780388.post7957416486408616930..comments2022-01-28T02:18:46.456-05:00Comments on The High Church Protestant: Grace Leading into FaithAdamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12511017439465230071noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2681422887257780388.post-69362928934401927142010-05-07T16:52:00.356-04:002010-05-07T16:52:00.356-04:00By the way, I think one of principal fears many Pr...By the way, I think one of principal fears many Protestants have of this (our) teaching is precisely that it seems to render the explicit Gospel, and the need of grace, void.<br /><br />But if grace is available to those outside the faith, the second problem evaporates, and if we highlight the fact that the decisive revelation of God is necessary for full transformation, then the first problem evaporates.<br /><br />So expect this opposition, and be quick to point this out!Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484003949277428168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2681422887257780388.post-29926033090766063192010-05-07T14:26:40.262-04:002010-05-07T14:26:40.262-04:00I think Dongell is also right that it is our recep...I think Dongell is also right that it is our reception and deep sense of God's love for us (through the means of grace) that actually changes us and enables us to love. The interesting question would be, how can this grace be communicated to non-Christians apart from Christian revelation, the cross, etc?<br /><br />I think the answer is general revelation. God's love can be discerned, indeed felt and received, through creation, providence, and moral conscience. Not as fully as explicitly Christian revelation, but it is on the way.<br /><br />Beautiful sunny days, night skies, and powerful examples of deep morality certainly gave me the power to do good before I was a Christian. And it only makes sense that the clearest revelation of God's love (Incarnation, Atonement, Trinity) would prompt and enable the fullest response of holiness in us.Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484003949277428168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2681422887257780388.post-46352764819426198292010-05-07T10:41:35.720-04:002010-05-07T10:41:35.720-04:00Kyle,
I am glad we are in agreement. Another key...Kyle,<br /> I am glad we are in agreement. Another key area of Scripture is the Gospel of John. Dr. Dongell lectured on this and came to the (well supported) conclusion that the most essential nature of holiness (at least as John presents it) is love, specifically active love.<br /><br />If this is the key to holiness I see no reason why non-Christians might not grow in holiness through the acts of love that characterize implicit faith.<br /><br />Pre-Christian sanctification! Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the extra texts and thoughts in support of this idea.<br /><br />PeaceAdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12511017439465230071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2681422887257780388.post-21391859309030718472010-05-06T19:24:40.533-04:002010-05-06T19:24:40.533-04:00I've given this more thought recently, and I&#...I've given this more thought recently, and I'm right there with you. Wesley actually takes a mediating position between yours and the typical Reformed position (that all good works prior to explicit faith/justification are "splendid sins"), but his position, at the end of the day, is kind of unintelligible. <br /><br />Wesley essentially argues that good works prior to justification are good "in some sense" because they flow from prevenient grace, but not good "properly speaking" (Wesley loves this phrase!) because they do not flow from sanctifying grace.<br /><br />But the problem here, which you are basically hitting on, is that it is unclear what is different between true, heartfelt morality and holiness. For instance, in the Bible, we read: "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). <br /><br />While holiness may be MORE than mere morality (it has a dimension of relationship to God), it is certainly not LESS than morality - a point C.S. Lewis makes, too. It is the SAME grace, with the same effect, that is appropriated with implicit faith, and it seems to me that it is equally sanctifying - God is setting apart that person for His purposes, even if that person is only dimly aware of it.<br /><br />I do believe that God's full revelation is needed in order to be entirely sanctified - which is why God did not stop short of His decisive revelation in Christ. And, like so many other areas, purgatory solves this problem! =)<br /><br />P.S. "Self-curvature" is not my phrase, but Luther's! =) We can learn from this crazy man yet!Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484003949277428168noreply@blogger.com